NO3 v "pitnej vode" - anaeróbny filter



Technika - filtrácia akvária, problémy s osvetlením, kryty na osvetlenie, reverzná osmóza, aktívne uhlie, ohrev akvária....

NO3 v "pitnej vode" - anaeróbny filter

Odoslaťod skala » 23 Jún 2003 08:22 am

Nedavno sa ma isty clovek pytal na jednu vec. Jeho zdrojova voda obsahuje prilis vela NO3 - dusicnanov. Chcel vediet, ci by ich mohol nejako odstranit. Ja som mu odpovedal, ze mozno aj ano - chemickou cestou, ale ze by v podstate mal mrtvu vodu - nepouzitelnu do akvaria.
Chova tazko chovatelne ryby a uz dlho a su na to viac-menej zvyknute. Myslim si, ze problemove dusicnany by boli problemove ak by sa menili na dusitany, ale v jeho pripade, ked ma zabehanu nadrz plnu Vallisnerii, tak mu funguju ako stimulant pre rastliny a pre bakterie vo filty.

Vysledok je podla mna ten - ze vysoky obsah NO3 v zdrojovej vode nie je sice ziaduci, ale nie je problemom. Toho dokazom su prosperujuce ryby v akvariu.

Suhlasite? Viete sa k tomu nejako vyjadrit?
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod Roman » 23 Jún 2003 09:12 am

NO3 je konecnym produktom nitrifikacneho procesu. Pri fungujucej aerobnej filtracii sa dusik v odpadnych latkach nakoniec kumuluje ako NO3. Ich vyssi obsah nie je pre ryby vacsinou hned skodlivy, prejavuje sa v dlhsom obdobi, je pravdou ze je spotrebovavany rastlinami ale urcite nesluzi pozitivne pre bakterie vo filtri, je to totiz konecny produkt, skratka odpad. Vodu menime hlavne preto aby sme rozriedili mnozstvo naakumulovanych dusicnanov (fosfatov, kovov atd) , ak na vymenu pouzivam vodu, ktora ho ma uz beztak vela, vlastne znizujem ucinnost tejto svojej aktivity. Nieco ine by bolo, keby mal v akvarku namontovany aj denitrifikacny (anaerobny) filter, co nepredpokladam. V takomto filtri prebieha opacny proces, kde za prisne kontrolovanych podmienok vznika z NO3 postupne NO2, NO, N2O a nakoniec plynny N2 , ktory z vody vyprcha. Denitrifikacne bakterie vsak potrebuju uzavrete prostredie bez pristupu kyslika a prisun uhlika (odnaty kyslik z NO3 konci ako CO2). Konstrukcia takehoto filtra nie je jednoducha a lacna ale vysledny efekt moze byt uzasny.
Jednoduchsie je samozrejme menit vodu za nieco cistejsie, ak ma NO3 vo vodovode nad 50mg/l , nech si okamzite zaobstara reverzku, nie len kvoli rybam ale aj pre seba a svoju rodinu. Zdravie mame len jedno.
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod Igypop » 23 Jún 2003 14:03 pm

Roman, spomenul si anaeróbny filter, zaujímalo by ma, čo to je po konštrukčnej stránke. Niekde som o tom aj niečo zazrel, ale neviem si spomenúť kde, stačilo by navigovať. :arrow:

Dík.
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod jacik » 23 Jún 2003 15:49 pm

ad igypop: ak som to spravne pochopil tak 'aerobny' filter je taky kde sa filtruje za pristupu vzduchu. 'anaerobny' filter je filter v ktorom nie je dostatok O2. drviva vacsina filtrov pouzivanych v akva je aerobnych. aj ten moj doma.

este par linkov kde sa dozvies viac:
http://www.discus.cz/technika/filtrace.htm
http://www.discus.cz/technika/filtrace_v_praxi.htm


ad skala: ja mam NO3 vyse 40mg/L vstupnu hodnotu a rybky su uplne v pohode
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod salik » 24 Jún 2003 07:18 am

tak ako jacik, aj ja mam vstupnu hodnotu okolo 40, v akvariu sa to pohybuje okolo 50mg/L, nevidel by som v tom problem

anaerobny filter :
http://www.lars-sebralla.de/wodkafilter_bau01.html
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod Roman » 25 Jún 2003 12:05 pm

Najjednoduchsi denitrifikacny filter:


Coil Denitrator DIY Project
Submitted by: Don Carner
Purpose: To eliminate or reduce accumulative nitrate, usually associated with infrequent of non-existent water changes.
Nitrate: Last in the line of chemical breakdowns occurring through the cycling or nitrification process.
Benefit: None, unless you are growing Caulerpa species of macroalgae.
Project Difficulty: 8 out of 10 (10 being advanced).
Introduction
Nitrate isn't good for our systems, be they FO (fish-only) or reef. So how do we eliminate or reduce the levels of nitrate that build-up in our closed water systems?
Water changes on a frequent basis combined by following a feeding routine that leans heavily towards the theory that LESS is better can control nitrate woes. Incidentally, this is the #1 method endorsed by ALL synthetic salt manufacturers. No strange coincidence there!

Another method is by the utilization of nitrate as FOOD for NNR or Jaubert filtration systems. By diffusion, nitrates are assimilated into a chemical "soup" that is contained within the plenum area. This area is O-2 poor, being isolated from the remaining water column by 4" of live sand (aragonite). This method is great for SPS grow out tanks and those propagating other corals and inverts. The end result in this method is the conversion of nitrate into nitrogen gas, or de-nitrification. This gas percolates up through the sand and is released into the atmosphere at the water's surface. By the way, NNR stands for Natural Nitrate Reduction, which I believe was coined by Bob Goemans.

Ok, so you don't want to completely tear down and redesign your aquarium. Now what? You can buy a commercial denitrator that cost big bucks, is difficult to adjust, and requires feeding and monitoring to maintain proper operation. However, another very low-tech solution to this very common nitrate problem is a coil denitrator! Essentially nothing more than a cylinder with a coil of tubing and some BioBalls, this device works and achieves the same results as the more complex and costly commercial units, but easier and more naturally.

Instructions
Examine the drawing and notice the blue shaded area within the cylinder (C). BioBalls (F). Yup, and no they aren't there so you can add another fish! These give additional surface area for anaerobic bacteria colonies.
The orange rings are the coils of plastic tubing (E) running from within an inch of the lid, down to the bottom of the unit. Once you've wound the tubing, usually 1/4", around and around inside the body of the tube, straighten the coils as much as possible.

Obrázok

Leave the end of the coil exposed, just above what will be the base or bottom (D) of the device. Glue the bottom piece in place. A scrap of 1/2" acrylic is best but 1/4" will do. I recommend against 1/8" as it is too fragile.

Drill 2 holes in what will become the lid, again 1/4" will do here. For your input (A) and effluent lines (output=B) you can simply run the tubing through these holes and seal with silicone or place fittings here and use nipple connectors... whatever you like. I recommend the fittings as there will be pressure in the unit and a good seal is required. Pour in the BioBalls at this point. Keep them about 1" below what will be the top of the denitrator.

At this point you should have a cylinder (C) with a bottom, coils of tubing wrapped around the inside walls of the acrylic tube, BioBalls inside the coils and a lid with fittings or holes drilled. Attach the upper end of the 1/4" tubing to one of the nipples. Glue the lid/top on. Use Weld-On #16 thickened acrylic cement. It fills minor imperfections and sets within an hour.

All done, except for one last detail. A proper drip rate is needed to maintain dwell-time within the unit so the bacterias can gobble up the nitrates. Too fast a flow and your tests will show nitrites, as the bacterias have too much O-2 and denitrification isn't taking place. Too slow a drip or flow rate and hydrogen sulfides are produced, giving a rotten-egg smell that indicates trouble to the inhabitants of the reef or fish tank. I have experimented and found that a drip of just under a steady-stream is best. In other words, a very fast drip, but a definite drip just the same. Use a small air valve to regulate this on the output tube (B) running back to your sump or display tank.

When finished the unit is sealed and not intended to be disassembled. Once up and running the coil denitrator will last for many, many years without any adjustments or fiddling. About the only area of attention is the drip valve. This requires cleaning periodically to remove salt crystal build-up! Cost to build this unit is around what you'd pay to BUY one through a catalog house, but where's the satisfaction in that? If you don't wish to DIY, there are several commercial units on the market that are very good and I recommend them all. The issue here is getting rid of nitrates, either through building or buying. I just like tinkering with the hobby and enjoy the challenges of DIY! Good luck, and any additional comments or questions may be directed to me, Don Carner.

About Nitrate & How This Thing Actually Works
The coil denitrator takes 5 to 6 weeks to cycle (yes, they cycle just like the tank). The quantity of product that is processed, (nitrate) is truly amazing considering how once established, there isn't anything more to do! So how does this happen? As oxygen rich water is pumped into (G) and enters the top of the unit (A) it is forced to spiral down through the layers of plastic coil tubing (E) until exiting within the center of the cylinder (C). As the water level increases within the body of the unit, the BioBalls (F) become host to the millions of colonies of bacteria's that commence multiplying. As the water reaches back up to the top, it exits through the other fitting (B), the one not internally connected that runs back to your sump or display tank. So? So, as the water slowly works it's way down the spiral, the O-2 is consumed by AEROBIC bacterias, the same ones that are in your filter and make all the life possible. Somewhere around 3/4th's of the way down however, the O-2 levels diminish within the spiral, having been consumed by the aerobic bacterias higher up the coil. (D=Base; G=Water Pump)

Now what? Well, now the ANAEROBIC bacterias begin to flourish, the very ones that feed on nitrate, not O-2! As the water continues its travels it encounters the main interior chamber of the cylinder. All those BioBalls are just waiting to provide area for more anaerobic bacteria to consume all the nitrate that wasn't converted inside the bottom 1/4 of coil. This is the "bank" that will allow the coil denitrator to continuously process more and more nitrate as it is produced within the display tank. By the way, if you are using a wet-dry or trickle filter with ANY media, you have a nitrate producing filter! Yup, that's what they are designed to do, convert ammonias ultimately into nitrates! Nothing like adding more in so we can spend more $$$ to get it out, huh? As I stated earlier, any additional comments or questions may be directed to me, Don Carner.
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod Roman » 25 Jún 2003 12:11 pm

dalsi denitrator:

Coil Denitrator DIY

In reef and fish only aquariums a nitrate level is desired. One way to lower the nitrates is frequent water changes and following a feeding routine that leans toward the theory "Less is better". Many marine salt manufacturers endorse this method. One wonders... why? Salt!

Another way to reduce nitrates is to utilize nitrate as food for Natural Nitrate Reduction (NNR). This is accomplished by buying a commercial or DIY denitrator. Our coil denitrator is feed oxygen rich water via a pump. This O2 rich water enters the top of the unit and is then forced to spiral down through the coiled tubing, (usually 1/4"), until exiting within the bottom center of the chamber. As the water level increases within the body of the unit, the Bio-Balls soon become host to millions of colonies of bacteria that proceed to multiply. As the water reaches the top of the chamber, it exits through the output fitting, not internally fitted to the coiled tubing.

Basically, as the water makes it way down through the coiled tubing, the O2 (oxygen) is consumed by the AEROBIC (nitrosomonas & nitrobacter) bacteria, the same ones that are in your filter plumbing and walls of the tank. These bacteria convert ammonia into nitrite and then into nitrate. This process uses O2 and the levels of O2 diminishes.

Now what? Well, now the ANAEROBIC bacteria begin to flourish in this O2 deprived water. They consume nitrate, not O2. As the water continues to travel it encounters the main interior of the chamber. This is where all the round Bio-Balls provide a high surface area for the ANAEROBIC bacteria to colonize.

At this point there is one last detail... a proper drip rate. A proper drip rate is needed to maintain the dwell-time within the unit (basically the flow rate of the water and the time it stays within the chamber) so the bacteria can consume the nitrates. Too fast a flow or drip rate and your tests will show nitrates (as the bacteria have too much O2). Too slow a drip or flow rate and Hydrogen Sulfides are produced. Hydrogen Sulfide can be identified as that rotten-egg smell. Presence of Hydrogen Sulfide indicates trouble to the inhabitants of the reef or fish tank.

PLEASE NOTE: IT IS RECOMMENDED TO AERATE THE EFFLUENT (OUTPUT) WATER FROM THIS COIL DENITRATOR BEFORE REINTRODUCING THE WATER BACK TO THE AQUARIUM. AERATION OF THE WATER HELPS TO ELIMINATE HYDROGEN SULFIDE AND ALSO KILLS OFF ANY STRAY BACTERIA. A DIAGRAM FOR AN ADD-ON AERATION CHAMBER WILL BE PROVIDED SOON!

Following the plans below should give you a Coil Denitrator which you will not have to feed. Testing of nitrates and hydrogen sulfide is recommended. A drip rate of just under a steady-stream is best. A very fast drip, but a definite drip just the same. Use a small air valve to regulate this on the output tube running back to your aerator or sump.

Following the plans below should give you approximately 50 ft of 1/4 inch coiled tubing. This lowest recommended drip rate is 1 drop per second or 60 drops per minute. When adjusting the drip rate, only adjust 1 drop per minute.

When you have constructed the coil denitrator, first fill with aquarium water. Next shut off the system for 3 days. This step depletes the system of O2. Next place 5-6 grains of granular sugar in the input line. Clamp off the line so you don't have to many bubbles when you reconnect the line. Next start up the system at 30 drops per minutes for 2-3 weeks. After this time, readjust the drip rate to 60-90 drops per minute (DON"T FORGET THIS). Denitrators can take months to cycle so be patient. Continue to test for Nitrates in your aquarium.

This DIY Coil Denitrator is not intended to be disassembled. Once it is up and running the denitrator will last for many, many years without any adjustment. About the only area of attention is the drip valve, which may require cleaning due to salt spray.

Materials:

Canister material = acrylic cell-cast cylinder 1/8" wall thickness.
Canister diameter 4" Canister Height 22"
Buy scrap 1/2" acrylic for bottom plate
Buy scrap 1/4" acrylic for top lid
Buy 1/4" 75 ft. continuous. You may also purchase 1/4" poly-tubing from a hardware store in bulk. 2- Airline tubing connectors (connects 2 airline tubing together or extends the tubing).

Buy 1-2 boxes of mini-bio balls. 1 gal should fill the canister for a 4" dia. 22" tall canister while 1 to 1-1/4 gal should fill the canister for a 4" dia. 24" tall canister.
Buy 1/4" airline tubing
Buy Rio 1700 or similar pump/powerhead. Please don't use a valve on the pump output (run it wide open).
Buy a reducer (reduces 1/2" inch tubing to 1/4" tubing.
Buy a airline adjusting valve for output water drip system.
Buy Weld-On #16 thickened acrylic cement. This fills in any imperfections and sets within an hour.
Carbon cup or similar device to filter out the ozone from the output of this DIY Ozone Reactor.
Ok here is the diagram which will help you in understanding and construction..


Obrázok


A = Water in from pump with a 1/2" to 1/4" reducer connected to a 1/4" in airline connector (glued into lid). You may connect the 2 with airline tubing.
B = Water going out (1/4" airline connector glued into lid)
C = Airline adjustable valve connected with airline tubing to "B" This is where you adjust the drip rate. NOTE: This output water should be aerated before going into sump to kill off stray bacteria and eliminate Hydrogen Sulfide.
D = BioBalls, Bio,Pak, BioKaskade, etc. Any plastic media will work here. Shotgun shell wadding (not colored) will also work. The ideas here is to break up the water and allow ANAEROBIC bacteria to colonize on the high surface area of the Bio-Balls.
E = Water flow up through Bio-Media with no O2 (Oxygen), ideal for ANAEROBIC activity.
F = 1/4" airline tubing or plastic tubing continuos. Again buy approximately 75 ft. of it so it is one piece. The top end of this coiled tubing connects to "A".
G = The bottom end of the coiled tubing is open to the inner chamber. By this point the water should have zero O2.
H = 1/2" thick acrylic scrap glued or bonded to bottom of canister. Used as a base for canister to fit on. Again use acrylic cement or a bonding agent meant for acrylic.
I = 1/4" scrap acrylic glued to make a lid. Use acrylic cement or a bonding agent meant for acrylic.
J = Nitrate free or close water. This water should be aerated to kill off any stray bacteria and help eliminate Hydrogen Sulfide before entering the sump or aquarium. We will be posting an add-on diagram of an aeration chamber for this unit soon.
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod Igypop » 27 Jún 2003 19:25 pm

Fakt dobrý link, ale po nemecky ani neceknem. Ale je tam toho strašne vela, a podľa obrázkov to vyrezerá zaujímavo.

Ak som správne pochopil, princíp anaeróbneho filtra je taký, že ním preteká veľmi málo vody a chemické procesy prebiehajú takmer bez prítomnosti kyslíka. Podľa prepočtov by mal mať pomerne veľký objem oproti aeróbnemu filtru. Ako písali na www.discus.cz/technika/filtrace_v_praxi.htm, tieto procesy prebiehajú aj v pôdnych filtroch, ale vzhľadom na nevýhody pôdneho filtra pre rastliny (pohyb vody okolo koreňov) sa vo vačších a vysadených akva nepoužíva. Preto som prišiel na myšlienku kombinácie aeróbneho filtra (napr. vonkajšieho) s pôdnym anaeróbnym filtrom, ale s veľmi! malým prietokom, tak aby to čo najmenej vadilo rastlinám. Lebo napr. pri akváriu s pôdorysom 100x40 a vrstve 5cm jemného štrku, by mal filter objem 20 L, čo by mohlo stačiť.

Aký je váš názor?
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod skala » 30 Jún 2003 11:38 am

Rozumne myslienka, napadla uz mnoho ludi. Doporucuje sa to casto takto.
Jeden mechanicky cistic a druhy chemicky.
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod Igypop » 30 Jún 2003 20:42 pm

Včera som si meral dusičnany a vyšlo mi toto: NO2 - 0,0 :?: NO3 40 mg/l. To NO2 je možné, alebo mám zlý test?
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod Astrid » 30 Jún 2003 21:39 pm

Igypop napísal:Včera som si meral dusičnany a vyšlo mi toto: NO2 - 0,0 :?: NO3 40 mg/l. To NO2 je možné, alebo mám zlý test?

NO2 ani nema byt vela, to moze uskodit rybam. 0 je mnozstvo, ktore ma v akvariu byt. Toleruje sa nejaka hodnota do nula cela nieco, ale to si nepamätam, nech napisu ostatni.
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod jacik » 30 Jún 2003 21:53 pm

NO2 0,1mg/L max. 0,2mg/L. viac moze uz zabijat. zalezi od odolnosti ryby ci rastliny. ale najlepsie je 0.0mg/L
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod skala » 01 Júl 2003 07:47 am

NO3 - dusicnany nie su take hrozne, ale NO2 - dusitany su priam toxicke. NO3 (2-) mozno pokladat za aj hnojivo, ale pokial dojde k ich zmene reakciou postupne na dusitany vo velkom mnozstve, tak je to skodlive. Moze to vyustit az do otravy amoniakom (cpavkom) - NH3. Dozvies sa o tom, ked si najdes cyklus N - dusika v stredoskolskej biologii, alebo chemii - nitrifikacne a denitrifikacne procesy. Funguje, vo vode, v pode, aj v zivych tkanivach. Zavisia od kopec faktorov. Je to dost zlozite.
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod salik » 19 Júl 2003 21:55 pm

dnes som pomeral trochu vodu v mojom novom pôsobisku - Sväty Jur a som prijemne prekvapeny, vodicku budem mat konecne "unotuto" - kH-6, NO2-0mg/L, NO3-10mg/L!! (napr. v BA/Raci je NO3 40 az 50mg/L!)
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod Ceco » 20 Júl 2003 00:29 am

Blavacka voda je nejaka "divna". Ja byvam v Samorine a tiez mam vo vodovodnej vode NO3 max 10 mg/l :)
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Re: NO3 v "pitnej vode"

Odoslaťod tom » 21 Júl 2003 09:33 am

salik napísal:dnes som pomeral trochu vodu v mojom novom pôsobisku - Sväty Jur a som prijemne prekvapeny, vodicku budem mat konecne "unotuto" - kH-6, NO2-0mg/L, NO3-10mg/L!! (napr. v BA/Raci je NO3 40 az 50mg/L!)


Budeme chodit k tebe na vodu :-) Sice mam vsetko v pohode (Samorin) okrem tej tvdosti, tu mam cca 12-13 ...
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